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Posted by pdxor on June 18, 2009, 5:07 am
My wife will retire soon. She can take her pension in several ways
depending on if the term is for her life only, her life with a minimum
number of years, her life and then 50% to me as a survivor. or the
lowest amount for the time either of us is alive.
Is there a type of life insurance I can get to cover the difference?
For example if the difference between what my wife would get for her
life only and the amount we would get if either of us is alive is
about $500/month. So is there a life insurance that would pay me $x/
month for the remainder of my life if she dies first? If the cost is
less than $500/month it may be a better option.
If this type of insurance is available, what is this type of policy be
called and are they commonly available.
thanks
pdxor
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Posted by Douglas Johnson on June 18, 2009, 10:25 am
>My wife will retire soon. She can take her pension in several ways
>If this type of insurance is available, what is this type of policy be
>called and are they commonly available.
Yes, there is. My wife is in the same situation and we are investigating
something called "Pension Alternative" from MetLife. They claim to have a
patent on it, but I can only find one patent assigned to MetLife and that is on
a different area.
Regardless, the idea is just as you suggest. You buy a life insurance policy on
your wife. If she dies first, you convert the proceeds to an immediate annuity
that continues the pension payment. They structure the whole thing so you get
at least the pension amount. It will be more if she lives longer.
Obvious downsides are that, if you miss some insurance payments, and let the
policy lapse, you are out of luck.
Also the pension payment is guaranteed by the Feds, the life insurance is
guaranteed by the insurance company. If the company is strong, this is probably
a small difference, but watching blue chip companies go down raises the issue.
There are also state insurance guarantee funds, but they may be limited to
smaller amounts than you need to make this work.
My wife and I are meeting with the planners in a couple of weeks, so lack all
the details. I do not endorse this thing in any way, just answering your basic
question and inviting comments from anyone you has any experience with it.
-- Doug
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Posted by Gene E. Utterback, EA, RFC, AB on June 22, 2009, 3:43 pm
> My wife will retire soon. She can take her pension in several ways
> depending on if the term is for her life only, her life with a minimum
> number of years, her life and then 50% to me as a survivor. or the
> lowest amount for the time either of us is alive.
>
> Is there a type of life insurance I can get to cover the difference?
> For example if the difference between what my wife would get for her
> life only and the amount we would get if either of us is alive is
> about $500/month. So is there a life insurance that would pay me $x/
> month for the remainder of my life if she dies first? If the cost is
> less than $500/month it may be a better option.
>
> If this type of insurance is available, what is this type of policy be
> called and are they commonly available.
>
> thanks
> pdxor
>
Yes, sort of. BUT, as always, you need to be careful and make sure you
understand all the variables.
I am not aware of a special type of insurance that covers this. Generally
the theory is that you simply buy as much life insurance as you need to
produce the lump sum necessary to fund a Single Premium Immediate Annuity
sufficient to replace her income on her death. If we say that real fast it
makes it sound simple, but here's what complicates the issue -
How much insurance you'll need will depend on how long she will live and how
long you will live after she dies. This is the big question in all life
insurance cases. If we knew she was going to outlive you then you don't
insurance at all. If we assume she dies before signing her first pension
check then you need a LOT more.
If you go www.immediateannuities.com you can plug in various info and it
will solve for the result. For example, if we knew how old you are now,
what state you lived in and how much her full pension was that web site will
tell us how much we need to deposit to receive an income stream for a period
of time.
Your next issue is going to be the type of insurance that you buy. Most
people prefer term insurance because it is cheaper than permanent life.
Just remember that cost is NOT the only difference here. Term insurance is
just that - where the premium is set for a specified term. If you die
within that term the insurance pays off. If you outlive the term then the
premium will usually increase, usually by a significant amount. So you
could lose the insurance if you can't afford it.
Term polices are also age driven, to some extent. By this I mean that with
all other things being equal a younger person will pay less for the same
policy as an older person. This is what drives the increases in term
policies after the initial term. You also have to be aware that the older
we get the harder it is to get the longer terms. I am aware of ONLY ONE
insurance company that will issue a 30-year term policy to a 50-year old and
I don't know any companies that will issue a 30-year term policy to anyone
over 60. You can still buy term, just not with a guaranteed low premium for
that long. Typically, seniors can get 15 or 20 year term policies and no
one knows if ANY term is long enough.
For example, if your wife is retiring at 65 and the longest term you can get
on her is for 15 years that means that the insurance will either lapse or
increase when she hit 80. If her mother is alive and kicking and is now 90,
then a 15 year term may not be sufficient. Typically, when the initial term
expires the premium increases and the older you are the more it will
increase. I have a client who at 36 bought a 15-year term policy for around
$50 a month. When he hits 51 that premium will increase to about $250 a
month. Further, he has developed some medical issues that will make it
harder for him to get replacement insurance since he will likely NOT pass a
physical.
Consider that for a 65 year old male in Maryland you'll need about $750K in
a lump sum to provide $5K a month for life, with 20-years certain. This
means that you'll need life insurance on your wife for about $750K.
Premiums for a 15-year term policy for STANDARD NON TOBACCO (someone in good
condition who doesn't smoke) female age 65 run from about $500 to $800 a
month. When this policy term expires (when she is 80) the premium will
increase to over $2,000 PER MONTH.
Now you may be able to tweak this some by assuming that in 15 years you
won't need as much insurance on her. So I've checked for quotes on an
80-year old female, again standard nontobacco, and THAT premium is $2,334.28
and is only available for 10-years.
You could tweak it further if you needed less insurance - by assuming you'll
also be 80 when she dies you would only need about $450K to buy a single
premium immediate annuity that would guarantee $5K a month for the rest of
your life, with NO period certain. So the insurance premium for a standard
nonsmoking female aged 80 in Maryland would be around $1,500 a month - NOTE
that this is still at least triple your projected savings.
Another option would be for you to buy permanent insurance - doing this
would guarantee that the premium would NOT increase. BUT this will cost
considerably more. A $750K permanent policy will cost about $2500 a MONTH
this far exceeds the savings you're looking at and is why term insurance is
so popular.
Keep in mind that there are lots of tweaks that can be made as long as you
are willing and able to adjust your assumptions and needs. Assuming you'll
need less than her full pension means you need a smaller lump sum to provide
a reduced monthly payment. Assuming as you get older you'll need less in
general means you can get by with less insurance because you'll need to buy
a small SPIA.
Of course, one of the oddities I find in most of the planning literature is
that one assumption is that you'll be able to live on less, yet we can
expect considerably higher health care costs - these two issues seem to
contradict each other. Unless you assume that you'll live on less because
you'll spend more on health care - BUT that negates the assumption that
you'll need less income.
As a side note, one of the benefits of working with a professional planner
is that they can help you identify and quantify your need and they can help
you explore your options. It can certainly be done on your own, you just
have to make sure you don't miss anything, which is where most people fall
short. Remember, no one plans to fail, they just fail to plan
(sufficiently).
Good luck,
Gene E. Utterback, EA, RFC, ABA
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Posted by pdxor on June 24, 2009, 5:17 am
Gene,
Thanks for some of your prices. That give me a general idea.
I knew I could just go buy regular life insurance and calculate it all
myself, reducing the amount needed year by year while the cost
increased year -by-year due to age. As you mentioned to do all this I
would have to make all the assumptions on how long I was going to
live, how long my wife would live etc. Heck if I knew all that I
wouldn't need the insurance.
What I was looking for was something that did all that as part of the
policy. I want THEM to figure the risk and cost of paying me $/month
for the rest of MY life-whatever it may be- IF my wife dies before
me-- Whenever that may be.
Someone has figured that already because the price difference is an
option in her basic pension plan. The cost I would be paying for this
if I bought it through the pension plan would be $500/month and it
would be paid (withheld) every month that either me or my wife are
alive because the plan would just pay us $500 less than if we did it
only for her life.
If a pension plan can figure this and come up with a price, I thought
a life insurance company should be able to figure it out. The basics
of what I want to buy IS life insurance.
Thanks
pdxor
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Posted by HW \"Skip\" Weldon on June 24, 2009, 8:32 am
>What I was looking for was something that did all that as part of the
>policy. I want THEM to figure the risk and cost of paying me $/month
>for the rest of MY life-whatever it may be- IF my wife dies before
>me-- Whenever that may be.
>
>Someone has figured that already because the price difference is an
>option in her basic pension plan. The cost I would be paying for this
>if I bought it through the pension plan would be $500/month and it
>would be paid (withheld) every month that either me or my wife are
>alive because the plan would just pay us $500 less than if we did it
>only for her life.
You are almost there. After calculating the single sum necessary for
the annuity assuming you die soon (anything else could be an
inadequate amount), get life insurance quotes that will guarantee that
amount regardless of investment performance or date of your death.
Bear in mind that the pension survivor benefit guarantees both of
those things, meaning that if the life insurance doesn't, you're
comparing apples to oranges and taking risks with your survivor's
future. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but you need to
acknowledge it and in fairness explain it to your potential survivor.
The life insurance product that does that is called whole life
insurance. So... get a quote on whole life in the amount necessary.
When you compare that premium to the $500/month pension savings,
you'll have your answer.
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