International Emerging Markets Fund

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International Emerging Markets Fund hh_online 02-06-2007
Posted by on February 6, 2007, 4:57 am
I have money in VEIEX - VANGUARD EMERGING MARKETS STOCK. I recently
read an article in which the 'expert' antcipated the run that
international emerging funds has had over the last couple of years to
end. He seemed to consider it a bubble. This goes against the notion
that i've had in my readings that China and India still have massive
untapped markets. What indicators should I keep my eye on in regards
to when to sell my holdings in that fund - the dollar's strength
overseas? maybe trends in other key international funds?

Obviously, I am sure there are other 'experts' that would contend that
the fund is likely to continue it's gains a bit longer, but I want to
educate myself in possible international indicators.

Thank you!
HH


Posted by on February 6, 2007, 5:23 am
On Feb 6, 9:57 am, hh_onl...@mindspring.com wrote:
> I have money in VEIEX - VANGUARD EMERGING MARKETS STOCK. I recently
> read an article in which the 'expert' antcipated the run that
> international emerging funds has had over the last couple of years to
> end. He seemed to consider it a bubble. This goes against the notion
> that i've had in my readings that China and India still have massive
> untapped markets. What indicators should I keep my eye on in regards
> to when to sell my holdings in that fund - the dollar's strength
> overseas? maybe trends in other key international funds?

The bubble argument is a strong one. The PEs of stocks in India and
China are eye watering, and there is massive local speculation.

The basic indicator is that when the market starts to fall, the bubble
may be deflating. Emerging market bonds (the yield spread over US
Treasuries) may also be interesting in this regard (meaningless I
suspect in the case of China and Russia, but interesting in the case
of India and other markets).

More generally, keep an eye on the Yen: the fuel for the world's
speculative markets is the 'yen carry trade' ie borrowing in Yen and
investing elsewhere. So if the Yen starts to rise against the dollar
and the euro and/or the Bank of Japan raises interest rates, then that
situation starts to unwind.

The price of risky assets all over the world will start to rise
relative to 'safe' assets. This former includes property, high yield
bonds and emerging market equities.


>
> Obviously, I am sure there are other 'experts' that would contend that
> the fund is likely to continue it's gains a bit longer, but I want to
> educate myself in possible international indicators.

People who can predict the timing of such things either don't exist,
or are very, very rich. Neither is likely to post here ;-).


Posted by Jose Bailen on February 6, 2007, 8:42 am
On Feb 6, 10:57 am, hh_onl...@mindspring.com wrote:
> I have money in VEIEX - VANGUARD EMERGING MARKETS STOCK. I recently
> read an article in which the 'expert' antcipated the run that
> international emerging funds has had over the last couple of years to
> end. He seemed to consider it a bubble. This goes against the notion
> that i've had in my readings that China and India still have massive
> untapped markets. What indicators should I keep my eye on in regards
> to when to sell my holdings in that fund - the dollar's strength
> overseas? maybe trends in other key international funds?

You may wish to take a look at the data first. These are the valuation
indicators for emerging markets as of end-2006:

http://www.globalindices.standardandpoors.com/sandp/index.jsp?pg=/apps/fundamental/fundamental.jsp&rp=returns

Looking at the average price-to-book value ratios (P/B) which is the
main indicator of how expensive a market is (high P/Bs usually imply
an overvalued markets), Argentina, Egypt, India, Mexico, Morocco, and
Nigeria have higher average P/Bs than the U.S. In particular, Egypt,
India and Nigeria were clearly overvalued (P/Bs above 4, versus an
average P/B of 3.05 for the US market). By contrast, Colombia,
Thailand, Turkey and Venezuela have all P/Bs below 2. In all these
cases, however, the low valuation comes at an expense of high risks,
in particular political risks, which in Thailand or Venezuela -Chavez
effect- are particularly high.

A relatively attractive market with less political risk is South
Korea's (a P/B of just 1.65). This is probably why Warren Buffett has
already started investing in this market. (the big risk in South Korea
is, of course, North Korean nukes).

In my opinion, an allocation of about 15 percent of your portfolio to
CAREFULLY chosen emerging markets makes perfect sense. If you are not
too worried about the potential risk of North Korean nukes on South
Korea or you think that Thailand's recent political problems are not
going to weigh too much in its stock market, these are probably the
two markets you should select for your emerging markets allocation.


Posted by Tad Borek on February 6, 2007, 2:19 pm
Jose Bailen wrote:
> Looking at the average price-to-book value ratios (P/B) which is the
> main indicator of how expensive a market is (high P/Bs usually imply
> an overvalued markets)


One problem with looking at these metrics in emerging markets is that
many of these countries lack even basic accounting standards at the
business level, or standards for reporting those figures at the exchange
level. It's nothing at all like the US. It's been reported quite a bit
for China, which is beginning to adopt Western-style standards -- and
revealing some shaky foundations.

I've seen posts recently here with what look to me like very high
allocations to these markets, especially some that have run up a great
deal the past few years. I think it's worth looking at the market
capitalization (total value of traded shares) of these markets to put
them in perspective. For quite a few of them, you're talking about an
entire stock market with a market cap lower than many individual US
corporations. (grabs Economist Pocket World in Figures 2006...) With the
run-up these figures may be higher now but consider these 2003 numbers:

Thailand $119B - less than half the size of Citibank
Turkey $68B - a bit smaller than Apple
Egypt $27B - a bit larger than Starbuck's or Best Buy
Morocco $13B - a bit under Bed Bath & Beyond. For the whole market!

Oh and a few developed markets...
UK $2,412B
Japan $3,040B
US $14,266B

The notion of buying into a stock market whose entire market cap is that
of a mid-sized US company raises some questions about liquidity; these
are sort of the penny stocks of equity markets. Caveat emptor!

-Tad


Posted by on February 6, 2007, 3:14 pm
> Jose Bailen wrote:
> > Looking at the average price-to-book value ratios (P/B) which is the
> > main indicator of how expensive a market is (high P/Bs usually imply
> > an overvalued markets)
>
> One problem with looking at these metrics in emerging markets is that
> many of these countries lack even basic accounting standards at the
> business level, or standards for reporting those figures at the exchange
> level. It's nothing at all like the US. It's been reported quite a bit
> for China, which is beginning to adopt Western-style standards -- and
> revealing some shaky foundations.
>
> I've seen posts recently here with what look to me like very high
> allocations to these markets, especially some that have run up a great
> deal the past few years. I think it's worth looking at the market
> capitalization (total value of traded shares) of these markets to put
> them in perspective. For quite a few of them, you're talking about an
> entire stock market with a market cap lower than many individual US
> corporations. (grabs Economist Pocket World in Figures 2006...) With the
> run-up these figures may be higher now but consider these 2003 numbers:
>
> Thailand $119B - less than half the size of Citibank
> Turkey $68B - a bit smaller than Apple
> Egypt $27B - a bit larger than Starbuck's or Best Buy
> Morocco $13B - a bit under Bed Bath & Beyond. For the whole market!
>
> Oh and a few developed markets...
> UK $2,412B
> Japan $3,040B
> US $14,266B

As you imply, the *composition* of the index has a huge effect. For
example, banks and resource companies tend to trade at low P/B. The
UK has a very heavy weighting in financial. 4 sectors: pharma, banks,
oil and gas, mining account for something like 60% of the FTSE100
(although most funds index to the All-Share, which is somewhat
broader). 2 oil companies are 16% of the index (Shell and BP).

The biggest Mexican stock (by far) was Telefonos de Mexico, a company
which makes its money on the basis of its domination of Mexican
politics (which blocks new entrants into the telecoms sector, Mexico
has some of the world's highest phone rates).

I remember looking at an emerging markets ETF and concluding that it
was essentially a bet on Korean and Taiwanese tech companies.

https://flagship.vanguard.com/VGApp/hnw/FundsHoldings?FundId=0964&FundIntExt=INT

36% in Korean and Taiwanese stocks at the end of '05.


>
> The notion of buying into a stock market whose entire market cap is that
> of a mid-sized US company raises some questions about liquidity; these
> are sort of the penny stocks of equity markets. Caveat emptor!

It feels as if there is a real rush into emerging markets now.

I now have a good explanation of why risk is underpriced out there,
the product of an article by Gillian Tett of the Financial Times, and
a letter from Pimco published in the same issue.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/c421f7b2-b262-11db-a79f-0000779e2340.html

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/582ce5bc-b262-11db-a79f-0000779e2340.html

Basically the story runs:

- everyone is borrowing in Japan, and investing in higher return
assets (the carry trade)

- they are hedging their exposure to a rise in Japanese currency,
using options. They can do this cheaply, because the Central Banks,
amongst others, are *selling* currency volatility, as an option
strategy.

So volatility is cheap, because there are structural players out there
selling it.


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